FAQ: Why was your mom's Romanian citizenship revoked?

Question
I don't think your family's citizenship was revoked automatically by leaving. I know plenty of people who left and retained their citizenship. I also know others who had to intentionally renounce their Romanian citizenship in order to get citizenship in another country (e.g. Austria). The people I know who renounced it were either already out of the country or had an offer of citizenship before they left (e.g. from Germany or Israel). In both cases, they were able to get it back after 1990 as long as their new country of citizenship allowed dual citizenship.

Answer
My family left when Romania was communist; they basically committed "high treason" because they left permanently and have never been back.

Romanian citizenship during the Communist regime.
I have been told that any Romanian who left during the Communist regime were considered traitors by having committed "high treason" and thus revoked of Romanian citizenship. However, since the fall of Communism, laws have changed. The 1991 law basically cancels the revocation of citizenship due to its extreme political nature, therefore, my mom still has citizenship (we just have to prove it). My grandfather's is a different matter. He willingly renounced his citizenship. If we had wanted his to be restored, that would be another legal matter.

Question
Where was your grandma from? What was her original citizenship? Did she actually get Romanian citizenship? Marriage alone doesn't grant citizenship. It only helps you get a long term residence permit.

If you want your kids to have Romanian citizenship, then just give birth there. Have you tried different lawyers? Maybe a different lawyer would provide different results.

Answer
Grandma was born in the US to German parents. However, US citizenship laws at that time allowed my aunt to get US citizenship since my grandma wasn't married at the time. My mom was only Romanian since her father was Romanian and my grandmother was a couple months short of the 10 years necessary to pass on citizenship. I've asked my grandmother about this American-Romanian citizenship stuff, but she can't remember. I'm not sure if she's just getting old or has blocked it from her memory. Romania wasn't the nicest place when she lived there.

Can't just give birth in Romania. Laws have changed. That's like saying if I gave birth in Korea my kids would be Korean. It's jus sanguine (meaning citizenship is passed on by ancestry, like the majority of countries nowadays), not jus tierra (citizenship is given by the country where you give birth, like the US).

it has nothing to do with my lawyer. It's just the way things are in Romania. Everyone seems to say something different and then change their mind a day later.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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FAQ: What does the UNHCR say about rights to citizenship?

Question
If Romania is a signatory to the UNHCR, then you have a right to Romanian citizenship. You have a right to return to the country of your birth. You cannot lose your citizenship unless you specifically denounce/renounce citizenship (and this is a specific process). Bureaucrats are playing politics.

The solution is often beating them at their game before they play. Do the research. Quote the law at them. Treaties are legally binding and modify existing law (e.g. the Constitution) unless specifically overturned in court. What often happens is that something is rejected on a technicality. This protects the bureaucrat from responsibility.

The solution is twofold- give them legal basis to grant your claim and thereby protect them from mistakes. If Romania give Grandma citizenship, then she's got it. Next step (separate) apply for your own citizenship. One step at a time. You don't always dump all ingredients into a pan to make bread (dough must be kneaded, etc.) so why should you do other things that way?

Best wishes.

Answer
Romania's laws during the communist regime say that if you LEFT Romania, no matter what age, your citizenship was revoked. Here's what makes it worse. When my grandfather he left he wasn't even given a Romanian passport, just papers.

My grandmother was Romanian through marriage. She left with my mom and my aunt. They were given "stateless" passports, which according to the UNHCR isn't possible. I guess the loophole is that they were on my grandma's passport. Since she was a naturalised Romanian citizenship, maybe they could revoke her citizenship. And since my mom and my aunt were underage, they were simply put on my grandma's passport.

I've tried. Seriously I have. I'm ready to pull my hair out.

So in theory, if you want to uphold communist regime laws, then no one in my family HAS citizenship and we'd have to re-acquire it. My mom and I can't since our Romanian language skills aren't that good. They have to be fluent. And one the main reasons why I'm doing this is so that my kids can be citizens and I have to get citizenship before they're born and it looks like that's not going to happen.

I've tried quoted laws. For the past 10 years I've been searching for laws, Israel has the most compentent info. I FINALLY got my birth cert, after nearly a decade. Now they say it's no good. It's a Catch 22. Simply put: they don't WANT me to have citizenship, so I probably won't get it.

Until you've dealt with Romanian govt officials, you really have no idea what you're getting yourself into. I have a lawyer and he's also given the run around. They don't want us. That's it.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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A bit of good news

In August 2008, we found out that if we can prove that my mom is still a citizen, then I'd be a citizen. We sent the documents, but due to personal issues on both sides (myself and my lawyer) we decided to put the project on hold in August 2009. We started up again earlier this year after I got my Romanian birth cert!

The Chicago consulate doesn't recognise her citizenship on the basis that her passport has long expired, she doesn't speak Romanian, and she hasn't lived there since she left. Fortunately, the UNHCR and the Romanian Consitution disagree with the Chicago consulate.

Giving Up Romanian Citizenship
According to Romanian law, my mother can't have had her Romanian citizenship revoked, because it was required by birth.

This is from EICEE.
(1) Romanian citizenship can be acquired, retained or lost as provided for by the organic law.
(2) Romanian citizenship cannot be withdrawn if acquired by birth.

This is from UNHCR: Article 5 (section 2) of the Constitution of Romania that was adopted by the Romanian Parliament on 21 November 1991 indicates that Romanian nationality acquired by birth cannot be taken away from anyone (Monitorul Oficial 21 Nov. 1991). The UNHCR also has an English copy of Romanian citizenship laws.

Next Steps
Therefore if either my grandfather, grandmother, or my mother is still registered as a Romanian according to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, then I would be Romanian and could get the passport. I doubt that my grandmother would be listed as a citizen, since she was naturalised and therefore her citizenship was easier to revoke. We're hoping that my mom is still a citizen, since my grandfather passed away and my mom is closer to me by ancestry.

So, if can prove that my mom is still a citizen and hasn't renounced her citizenship or had it revoked, then I'd be a citizen. We're 100% sure that she never renounced it since she couldn't talk when she left Romania. Now we just have to prove that Romania never revoked her of her citizenship, which incidentally, is no illegal according to UNHCR and the Romanian Constitution.

I should find out by September. That's about two months. Though I'm not holding my breath since things seem to take a long time to get done in Romania.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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FAQ: How do you become Romanian?

Question
One thing you should keep in mind, is the whole point of this process is to prove that you are in fact a Romanian citizen from birth. You aren't becoming a Romanian citizen; Romanian law made you a Romanian citizen from birth by virtue of the fact you were born to a Romanian citizen parent. The fact that you were born outside Romania (and never even lived in Romania) makes no difference insofar as Romanian citizenship law considering you a Romanian citizen from birth. All you are doing is documenting and proving the fact that you were always considered a citizen under Romanian law.

Answer
I agree with you. I do. Try convincing the authorities otherwise. They're saying that my mom is no longer a citizen. They've told her to have her father go to the embassy and swear he never gave up citizenship. He died more than 10 years ago. The fact that I don't speak Romanian, nor have even stepped foot in the country isn't helping the matter. They, like most countries, are saying that a birth cert isn't proof of citizenship, but a passport is.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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News from my lawyer

Just heard from my lawyer. Looks like good news. NOW they're saying that I'm a citizen since my mom is. We've been saying that for years. My lawyer has been telling them this for months, and they finally have realised it. Before this, we were trying to get me citizenship through my mom. Now we've decided to prove that my mom's a citizen (and get her citizenship if necessary) and then try to get me citizenship.

Unfortunately, the Chicago consulate doesn't recognise her citizenship. All we need to do is get sworn declarations and then I should get it by default.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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Update on family's citizenship

This is from the Romanian Constitution from The Romanian embassy in Israel.
Art. 28. – Losing the Romanian citizenship by accepting the disclaiming has no effect on the citizenship of the spouse and underage children.

However, if both parents obtain the acceptance for disclaiming the Romanian citizenship, and the underage child lives with them abroad or leaves the country together with them, the underage child loses the Romanian citizenship at the same time with his parents, and if the latter lost their citizenship at different dates, on the last of these dates. The underage child that leaves the country, in order to live abroad, after both of his parents have lost their citizenship, also loses his Romanian citizenship when he leaves the country.

However, there seems to be a loophole. If citizenship is acquired by birth, such as in my mom's case, it can be revoked, only renounced.

Giving Up Romanian Citizenship
This is from EICEE.
(1) Romanian citizenship can be acquired, retained or lost as provided for by the organic law.
(2) Romanian citizenship cannot be withdrawn if acquired by birth.

This is from UNHCR: Article 5 (section 2) of the Constitution of Romania that was adopted by the Romanian Parliament on 21 November 1991 indicates that Romanian nationality acquired by birth cannot be taken away from anyone (Monitorul Oficial 21 Nov. 1991). The UNHCR also has an English copy of Romanian citizenship laws.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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FAQ: What's the problem with your mom's names?

Question
You said that you have to register your mom's marriage with RO and change her name on your birth cert because she left out one of her middle names. I have to do the same thing for my daughter because her middle name appears on one document and not another. The Romanian consulate said they are very strict about the names being exact.

Answer
Yes, they're very strict. Her name is just a little different. Basically an Americanised version of her Romanian name. They're been really strict with my mom. She changed her name, the arrangement of it and then got married. So we have to go throught the whole process.

Basically, they're denying that she's still a citizen, even though she is. She never gave it up and besides, the Romanian constitution says my mother can't give up Romanian citizenship, becuase it was required by birth. We're thinking about getting a lawyer.

Giving Up Romanian Citizenship
So according to Romanian law, This is from EICEE. The Romanian embassy in Israel also has lots of information.

(1) Romanian citizenship can be acquired, retained or lost as provided for by the organic law.
(2) Romanian citizenship cannot be withdrawn if acquired by birth.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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FAQ: How could you not know your mom's Romanian?

Question: You wrote that on Oct 30 2004 you just found out that my mother is Romanian.How did you not know before that? This is what puzzles me!! Even if you hadn't known that she retained her citizenship, would you not have known she was Romanian by birth? And with this knowledge, would it not have been the most logical step to go to the Romanian authorities at the beginning (instead of agonising for ages in this forum, as you appear to have done), and deduce from them at that point that in the circumstances, she was indeed still a citizen, thus making you elibigble? I am utterly bewildered by this!

Answer: My mother thought that if she became American, she would give up previous citizenship. This whole time she was under the impression that she had given up Romanian citizenship. The truth was that in America's eyes, she was only American, However, Romania did and still does recognise dual cit, so this whole time, she was Romanian.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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Quick summary of dates

Last updated 20 March 2017

Here's a quick rundown of all the important events that happened while I was trying to get Romanian citizenship. I've now given up a few times and am currently trying once again. All the links take you my blog posts where you can read more about what happened. You also might want to take a look at the FAQs.

2017

• February 2017: Birth certificate cancelled

2016

• October 2016: News from Romania about correcting my birth certificate.
• December 2016: My second daughter was born.

2015

• July 2015: Took all my Romanian documents back to my parents' house.
• August 2015: Married a wonderful man.
• September 2015: Trying again with Dr. Ioan-Luca Vlad (attorney for the Royal Family).
• November 2015: Told to get the mandates (POA) signed at the Romanian Embassy in Seoul. 
• November 2015: Signed the mandates (POA) at the Romanian Embassy in Seoul. 
• December 2015: Sent my American birth certificate to my lawyer.

2014

• January 2014: Divorced was finalised.
• February 2014: They revoked my birth certificate and I'm giving up. 
• February 2014: My work plans for Romania. 
• July 2014: Tried the Chicago consulate again: officially giving up.

2013

• May 2013: My husband and I separated; he's in Peru. My daughter and I are in Korea. 
• July 2013: Quick update about citizenship. 
• July 2013: Organising all the docs my lawyer sent me. 
• July 2013: Having problems with Seoul's Romanian Embassy's email.
• August 2013: Visited the Romanian Embassy in Seoul. 
• September 2013: My mom's mom died. 
• September 2013: Got an email from the Romanian Embassy in Seoul.
• September 2013: The Romanian Embassy in Seoul called me. 
• September 2013: Trying to register my marriage at the Romanian Embassy in Peru. 
• October 2013: Why I'm still trying to get Romanian citizenship. 
• October 2013: I sent a Power of Attorney to register my marriage and get my CNP. 
• October 2013: My husband went to the Romanian Embassy in Peru. 
• November 2013: They can't issue me my CNP yet because of my name change. 
• November 2013: More docs needed for my CNP. 

2012

• January 2012: Hoping this will be the year I get my passport!
• January 2012: My husband, my mother and I all signed two documents.
• January 2012: My husband and I had to re-do 4 documents.
• February 2012: Got the documents apostillised.
• March 2012: All the docs are in Romania.
• March 2012: No news is bad news.

2011

• February 2011: My husband came back to Korea. We got pregnant right away :)
• February 2011: Got confirmation from Romania that my mother is still a citizen.
• February 2011: Lawyer put in my Romanian passport request. Fingers crossed!
• April 2011: Catch 22 with marriage and passport.
• May 2011: Flight booked to Romania. Will be travelling there alone and 7 months pregnant.
• July 2011: Won't have mom's birth cert in Romania though my lawyer can get another one.
• July 2011: In Romania. Start by reading Day 1, My First Impressions of Romania.
• August 2011: In Bucharest, Iasi, and Timisoara. Day trips to Sinaia and Brasov.
• October 2011: Need my husband's permission to register our marriage and change my name.
• October 2011: Husband signed docs.
• October 2011: Our daughter, TMI was born.
• October 2011: Problems getting docs apostillised.
• December 2011: The MFA in Lima won't apostillise our docs.
• December 2011: Got docs signed in Korea.

2010

• January 2010: Got my Romanian birth certificate.
• January 2010: Left Peru in order to move back to Korea.
• February 2010: Spent time in the USA.
• February 2010: Moved back to Korea.
• June 2010: Husband moved to Korea.
• July 2010: Asked the Ministry of Internal Affairs to see if anyone in my family is still a citizen.
• September 2010: Husband moved back to Peru.
• November 2010: Went to Seoul embassy to see if I could use birth cert to get passport.

2009

• March 2009: Became a Peruvian citizen due to marriage.
• March 2009: Put Romanian citizenship project on temporary hold.
• December 2009: Applied for my Romanian birth cert.

2008

• February 2008: Moved back to Peru.
• March 2008: Sent documents to lawyer and trying to study Romanian. 
• May 2008: Changed tactics. If we prove my mom's a citizen then I'd get citizenship by default. 
• August 2008: Sent more documents to lawyer. Still waiting and studying Romanian.   
• October 2008: More docs sent off.
• November 2008: Still waiting.

2007

• January 2007: Applied to correct mom's US marriage certificate and my US birth cert.
• June 2007: UNHCR laws prohibit citizenship from being revoked if acquired by birth.
• August 2007: Started contacting lawyers.
• August 2007: Found a god lawyer.
• August 2007: Got correct docs: my birth certificate and mom's corrected marriage certificate. 
• September 2007: Signed a contract with an Irish lawyer who's living in Romania.
• September 2007: Having (more) issues with the Chicago consulate.
• October 2007: Having issues with the Romanian embassy in Lima.
• November 2007: Moved to Korea.
• November 2007: My mom got the docs I sent her from Peru.

2006

• January 2006: Gave up. The Chicago consulate denied my mom's a Romanian citizen.
• February 2006: I got married in Peru.
• October 2006: Started trying again.
• December 2006: Visited the Romanian embassy in Lima, Peru.

2005

• January 2005: All my mom's documents have been translated.
• January 2005: My mom got her US passport, but it has her old name.
• March 2005: My mom has problems with all her different names. See also Name Change.
• May 2005: My father's mom died.
• July 2005: Name change request for my mom's birth cert finalized (took about 9 months).
• July 2005: Told that we needed to change my mom's marriage cert as well.

2004

• October 2004: Started process to get a Romanian passport.
• November 2004: Submitted mother's name change request for her Romanian birth certificate.

1999

• Fall 1999: Called the Chicago consulate and was told that my mom wasn't Romanian because she hadn't lived there for years and didn't speak Romanian.

In the beginning

• 1950s: Mom was born in Romania. 
• 1950s: Mom moved to U.S. at when she was about 1 year old with my grandmother and my aunt. Her dad came 3 years later. 
• 1960s: Mom was naturalized as an American at age 9, and changed her name from Mihaela to Michele as well as the the order of her given names.
• 1980s: I was born
• 1990s: My mom's dad died.

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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My quest begins

Some of you may know that I'm trying to get Romanian citizenship. So I thought I'd keep a bit of an ongoing diary about how to obtain it.

There are various ways to obtain it. The easiest is if one of your parents is Romanian. I just found out that my mother still has Romanian citizenship. She became a naturalized American citizen in 1965 after escaping from Romanian when it was going through a bad time. She escaped with my aunt and my grandmother. My grandmother and my aunt were American. My grandfather came over a couple of years later.

Anyways, my mother thought that if she became American, she would give up previous citizenship. This whole time she was under the impression that she had given up Romanian citizenship. The truth was that American recognises, but does not encourage dual citizenship. Which meant that in America's eyes, she was only American. In Romania's eyes, she was Romanian.

Simply put, if one of your parents is Romanian, and have a valid passport, all their children related by blood are also citizens. My mother has to get a passport. She needs her Romanian birth cert and marriage cert. Which needs to be translated. She needs the originals. And it takes a long time. After this, I'll be Romanian and can apply for a passport. Right now, my mother is requesting her birth cert. I'll write more as soon as something happens.

Giving Up Romanian Citizenship
According to Romanian law, my mother can't give up Romanian citizenship, because it was acquired at birth.

This is from EICEE. The Romanian embassy in Israel also has lots of information.
(1) Romanian citizenship can be acquired, retained or lost as provided for by the organic law.
(2) Romanian citizenship cannot be withdrawn if acquired by birth.

Dual Citizenship Allowed in Romania
This is from the Romanian citizenship law 21/1991. Here's the updated version.

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: RECOGNIZED. Due to Romanian recognition of dual citizenship, a child born to parents of different nationality is permitted, by Romanian law, to be a dual citizen. The only possible restriction might be the laws of the non-Romanian parent's country.

Family Roots Option
I got this from the Romanian embassy in Denmark. Since 2004, they have taken this information off their webpage. I don't know what happened.

This is for people who's parents don't have passports. Under this option the applicant must have roots in Romania or ex Romanian territories; he must be born in Romania or to have one of his parents born in Romania, or one of his grandparents born in Romania. This will qualify the applicant, his/her spouse and children of any age for citizenship. If many members of same family will apply at same time for citizenship they will have separate sets of documents and citizenship will be obtained separately.

Necessary documents:
1. Birth certificate of the applicant and birth certificate of one parent (the one born in Romania). Original.
2. Marriage certificate of mother (in case she was born in Romania and changed name after marriage). Copy, legalized by a notary.
3. Passport (photocopy).
4. Declaration, made at the Notary office, attesting the applicant didn’t apply for citizenship in the past. In our office.
5. Police record. Translated into English and legalized by a notary.
6. Power of attorney to be represented in their best interest, in front of all Romanian authorities, in order to obtain the citizenship. In our office, legalized by Notary.

All documents will be given in copies, translated in English and legalized by a notary office with the “apostil” approval by the court . If you choose to be assisted by our law office, you will sign a contract between our office and yourself, the power of attorney that enables us to represent you abroad and the Declaration to the Romanian authorities, written in English or Romanian; in case it will be in English we shall have to translate it into Romanian language in Romania, by a authorized translator.

The process takes 4 to 6 months. Most of the time is taken up by the background checks on the client, translations and issue of documents. The applicant will be notified to his home address, by the Romanian Consulate that he/she obtained the Romanian Citizenship and he/she will be invited to the Romanian Consulate for the loyalty vow to the Romanian flag.

3. Romanian Passport
One can prove Romanian citizenship by owning a Romanian passport. Any Romanian citizen who lives or travels abroad is identified with his own passport. Requirements to obtain a Romanian passport (for Romanian citizens living in other country than Romania):

notarised copy of the ”Birth Certificate”;
copy of the Residence Permit (Opholdstilladelse in Denmark);
copy of the previous passport or other document with photo;
notarised copy of the ”Marriage Certificate” (when the marriage took place in other country than Romania it should be transcripted in Romania);
5 photos and fee

Be sure to read about what has happened so far. You can find everything in the quick summary of dates.

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